from washington the mclaughlin group, the american original. for over three decades, the hardest talk. issue one. shock and awe. let's look at the facts. where we were when we came to office. the economy was in free fall. we had the great recession hit. 9 million people lost their jobs. $1.6 trillion in wealth lost in equity in your homes and retirement accounts for the middle class. >> did they come in and inherit a tough situation? absolutely. but we are going in the wrong direction. look at where we are. the economy is barely limping along. it is growing at 1.3%. that is slower than last year and last year was slower than

the year before. job growth in september was slower than it was ithan it was in july. we are heading in the wrong direction. >> question. who made the more powerful case on the economy? biden or ryan pat buchanan? >> they both made the case both parties have been making for a long, long time. this debate, john, was an excellent debate. ryan came and presented himself as an intelligent, personable, attractive guy, who you would like a great deal. but the star of the show was clearly joe biden. he had a number of statements he made i thought were excellent. but the issue the next day is that joe biden was boarish, he interfered, interrupted, was contemptuous and condescending to ryan and this is the talk the day after the debate. people are saying ryan won, republicans are saying ryan

won, democrats are saying biden wonment he rallied a base that had been demoralized by roughing up ryan as well he could. but the second part where libya, i think those things make it the democratic party the day after. >> that may be too high octane as a negative descriptive. >> i would's hold to it. >> you are watching too much cable news television, pat. i thought joe biden did exactly what he needed to do. he rallied the democratic base, which was demoralized, and he made up some of the ground president obama lost a week ago. he took the fight repeatedly to paul ryan, didn't let him get away with any of that, and he interrupted a lot. but it was a terrific debate. the two candidates engaged. martha did a fabulous job when she needed to, keeping them on point. they both performed well but the victor was joe biden because he

really scored on issue after issue. >> susan what did you think of the debate? >> i think both ellen and pat made excellent points. what was interesting in the spin room when you heard the republican and democratic aides talking about what happened, on important in these things, because it is all about the optics, how it looks, how it comes across. that was a very big score for them. they were very, very excited. the democrats were very excited. the republicans were a little more subdued, but they talked about ryan as the winner because he was articulate and he put forward the arguments important for their base and thought he outscored biden on getting the facts straight on things. but again the emotion and things that biden put forward were considered more valuable in some ways for the democrats. they were really excited about it. >> you were present at the debate itself? >> that's right. >> did you hear anything from obama's top advisor, any

expressions of disappointment? and from obama's top advisor? actually what david axelrod said was the president watched the debate on the plane coming home from florida and he thought it would be informative to the president and we would see a different president obama on stage on tuesday. >> did he say anything about ryan? >> did axelrod say anything about ryan? >> yes. >> the argument is ryan is misstating the facts on the economy and medicare. it is a common mantra. the democrats put forward is that the republicans aren't being truthful and they pushed forward that message strongly after the debate. >> was it a net big win for ryan? >> you are leading the witness, john. >> the republicans talked about it as going into tuesday as 2-0 for the republicans. but they didn't say it with the way the democrats were when

they talked about their guy winning. the democrats had a little more conviction in their statement. >> did you know if there was a focus group down there put together by cnn? >> yes. >> did you know that? uh-huh. the flash poll talking about what people thought during the debate and after the debate. >> the group thought the winner of the debate. >> 49-44 ryan. >> they were watching it in a control group correct? >> yeah but cbs had it 50-31. >> i heard it 50-31 biden. >> sample of what? >> he had at least some credibility. >> can i make one small comment here? look, i think ryan did well, he presented himself well. he presented himself as a credible national figure who understands the issues. biden spoke very well, spoke with great energy. the one thing that was a negative was the kind of condescending, the smiling in the middle of it, the interruptions. i don't think he came across as a likable figure in the way you would hope he would have, if

you were a democrat. and that, i think was the only negative. >> likable to his base. importantly here was he likable to the key independents? >> i'm not talking about his base. >> this was about the base and he drove home every issue. medicare, which party do you trust? social security, paul ryan wanted to privateize it. abortion rights, paul ryan wants to return that issue back to the states, overturning roe v. wade. issue after issue, he drew the contrast, after a week when governor romney tried to blur all the differences. the etch say sketch moment was finally ended last night. the contrast between these two tickets are very clear. were you disappointed the women in the focus group were faulting biden because of biden's lack of manners? >> exactly. >> women feel they are treated that way and they didn't like the way biden behaved. >> this is where he hurt himself. i agree with eleanor.

i think the democratic base is exhilerated over it. biden went in there and beat i him up. but to women, here was a guy being abusive and nasty and disrespectful and interrupt and go they don't like that, an awful lot of them. the question is, did biden hurt the ticket in the middle. >> no the democratic base is women. how can he do that and insult women. medicare. >> when the congressman had his first voucher program the cbo said it would cost $6400 a year more for every senior 55 and below, when they got there. folks, follow your instincts on this one. >> they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, turning medicare into a piggy bank for obamacare. >> yes, what is ryan getting at? eleanor? >> this is the $716 billion that the administration took out of medicare advantage, which was going to insurance company --

companies, and they diverted in part to close the donut hole for prescriptions, to provide free, preventative care for seniors. no seniors have lost any benefits. what romney is saying is he would take that money and put it back into the insurance companies. it is a phony argument, and they are trying to pretend the democrats are going to hurt. >> but the republicans. >> are going to hurt medicare when the history of the republican party is medicare in the first place. >> eleanor, the republicans used the $716 billion out of medicare, using medicare as a pig guy bank and giving it to obamacare because they have tested it, they have polled it, they have mentioned it every time they go on television. it is effective. >> not true. >> it is an effective argument and republicans don't have a great >> we didn't start medica i recall. >> taxation. >> the middle class will pay less and people making a million

dollars or more will begin to contribute slightly more. >> the next time you hear about middle class, the tax bill is coming to you. >> question. is this class warfare? susan? >> yes and it works fabulously. absolutely. it has been going on capitol hill for two years and it is certainly part of this campaign. it is the obama campaign saying we are standing up for the middle class and romney is standing up for the rich, for the wealthy. it is one of the main arguments in obama's platform and i think ryan did a very effective job talking about it, leveling it out saying eventually it is going to come to the middle class as well. do you think an argument aid is old because wealth is no longer seen as an evil, when you have all kinds of magazines featuring on the front cover buffett and who is the number one wealthiest man in the world? >> gates. but the key thing here. >> let's hear from the voice of authority over here. >> one quick point.

the key thing obama biden changed the position. normally it is 200 to 250,000, above that. biden kept talking about a million dollars. if obama moves there it would be a very smart move, just like romney did in the last debate. >> right. he speaks of it very eloquently. let me same there i'm thinking about this in terms of what will stimulate the economy. i have believed for years and i have written it for years, in a sense what romney is talking about makes a lot of sense. we have to lower the tax rate for everybody. not so much for the wealthy, but for the middle class of this country. and the way you compensate for the lower rates is by eliminating a lot of these it'd mizeed deductions. by the -- right miosessed deductions. -- itemized deductions. it is a progressive way of

taxing. it is most stimulus thing you can do for the economy. i don't get it give me the addition. why is that going to create more wealth? and spread it around? >> that's right. because you will increase the real incomes of the middle class of america. >> why? because they are going to have better jobs? >> no they'll have lower tax rates and less deductions, okay? that is the way it will average out. and they will be willing to spend, the same thing would be true of business. they would lose a lot of their deductions but they'll have lower rates. if you saw the numbers, okay, there is 1 frillian 12 libyan billion dollars that comes out of the tax revenue and 1 trillionian 1 lune hundred billion dollars that comes out of the legislation. the elimination of the loophole, so to speak, the deduction, legitimate deductions, eliminates those. >> what loopholes? >> that takes care of the middle class. that will be spread out. >> revenue neutral. >> not bad. what is wrong with that.

>> governor romney doesn't say what loopholes. he refers to these loopholes. you go to his website, there is no mention of loopholes, no mention of what he is going to close. so what is he going to close and who is it going to affect? >> easy ways to do it no more than 10% deductions off your income. >> so why doesn't he say so. >> eleanor, let me mention. the key you were asking mort about is what does it do? you increase the reward to work. the individual incentive to work. cut the taxes from 35 to 28 people are going to say let's not worry about this go out and make more money. you energize businesses and individuals get the tax rate to you,. >> it the argument going back to. ryan's reprimand. >> it shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility. >> with respect to that quote i

think the vice president very well knows that sometimes words mouth the right way. >> question. did mr. ryan effectively counter the infamous 47% mitt romney quote? >> no. no. and you didn't play biden's response there. he said i always say what i mean and so does governor romney. that was a wonderful response to that comment. the 47% is not a made up thing. it is what governor romney believes. >> the 47% riff by biden was the best part of the debate for him. he said what are you talking about? my folks i grew up with in scranton, my neighbors my parents that was the best thing for biden in the whole thing. did you observe that part buchanan is glorifying here? >> i agree biden was very effective with that argument and

it set you want something for ryan to attempt to discount it by saying ryan is full of all these gaffes all the time but i didn't think it came across as effectively as they wanted it do. it got a laugh but didn't kill the argument biden was making about the 47%. when we come back, the benghazi blame game. you spent years hard at work, building your skills and talents, raising your family. and lately, like me, you're probably feeling a need to help your community.

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issue two. benghazi blame game. >> when i requested assets,

instead of supporting those assets, i was criticized and somehow, it was my responsibility to come up with a plan on the ground. >> eric nordstrom, a state department official, was the agent in charge of security for u.s. diplomats functioning in libya at the u.s. embassy in triply, and the u.s. consulate in benghazi. he appeared before a congressional committee this week and testified he had alerted a state department -- the state department in washington that the situation in post revolution libya, after gadhafi, was precarious. >> routine civil unrest, militia on militia violence. general lawlessness. >> the house oversight and reform committee is chaired by republican darrell ice sa. ice sa -- ice sa. in the months prior to the

attack on the u.s. consulate in benghazi on september 11th, three and a half weeks ago. four americans were killed, including the u.s. ambassador to libya, chris stevens, the first ambassador to be murdered since 1979, 33 years ago. >> charlene lamb, the state deputy assistant secretary, testified that she and the department did not support the request for more security. according to lamb, given the information available, the number of security agents, called assets, was adequate. >> we had the correct number of assets in benghazi. >> as to the number of assets, chairman ice issa said this. people are in the hospital recovering because it only took moments to breach that facility somehow doesn't seem to ring

true to the american people. >> the chairman's point was reinforced this week by the dozens of heavily armed men. >> question. given the facts that have come out since the september 11th benghazi attacks, can it be sad with certainty that there was adequate forewarning of the security gaps but inadequate follow through by the department of state mort? >> that is the only conclusion you can take from it. plenty of warning, they wanted more police protection for the embassy and it was not given. in fact they had virtually nothing. they took away the plane that was standing by to take them out, in case of emergency. absolutely it was a disgrace, frankly. >> right they considered that facility it wasn't even a consulate and somehow it didn't merit getting the same kind of

security which is why you had that ridiculous statement by this woman. there is now an investigation headed by thomas pickerring, a career diplomat, respected, goes back to the reagan years. what we have to find out is how far up the chain did the request for security go? who denied it and on what grounds? did it go up to senior levels in the state department? >> bigger and bigger john. >> pat's convinced there is a cover-up. he knows cover-ups. >> you beat me to that one. >> i have been involved in cover ups. >> i want to know if it goes up to the top, that she didn't mention who is at the top, hillary clinton. >> this is the point. joe biden said last night we were not informed of any security threat. >> do you believe that? >> yes. what he is saying is, before the event, those of us in the white house, and the white house confirmed that today, they were not informed. but in the state department, obviously they knew about it and how far up the chain of command

did it go in the state department? did it go to hillary clinton? because susan rice went out five days later, she is virtual number two in the state department said it was not premeditated, not preplanned. this was a protest, out of the protest all this violence came, which was completely not true. >> let's hear what vice said. >> we weren't told they wanted more security again. we didn't know they wanted more security again. question in the face of the diplomatic testimony at the issa hearing what justification is there for vice president biden to say they were not notified? >> i know what the white house is arguing saying that they only didn't know because the state department didn't tell them. that is not really a good excuse. there are four dead americans. the first ambassador killed since 1979. the vice president saying i didn't know about it, who ran the policy for decades. that doesn't ring true. >> nobody is saying it is not a

good excuse. but we don't know where the. >> eleanor, there is a great massive breakdown of communication. we have four people dead and the president the next day the president flies out to las vegas to do his. >> the white house is saying today. >> what did you expect him to do? closet himself in the white house? >> yes i would. >> by doing a stunt and staying i guess he was staying in vegas, too. >> there have been other embassy attacks. >> the white house is saying today that the president of the united states did not know, beforehand, about this problem and the vice president of the united states did not know. now he is a key guy in national security. secondly, what about the national security council? did the state department inform their counterparts on security look we are getting complaints about benghazi? this whole thing this whole rotten can needs to be opened up. >> i'm calling this a scandal. it is a scandal of lax security

at our consulate in benghazi is it waxing or wanning? >> it is under investigation. the worst scenario, pat is did not come true. >> what does that mean? >> i don't know. >> more inflamed, pat. >> basically, it is bleeding. >> bleeding, that is pretty good. >> is it a question of what the nation's attention span is for foreign policy. this is a big deal, four people were killed. there is a really good chance we are going to be hearing more about this. the senate is going to have its own investigation after the election. the democrats are unking things over there and they don't want it to infear with the election. there are going to be likely classified hearings on the hill involving ambassador rice. they want to know what did she know. but i don't think you are going to get any level of participation from the administration that is going to necessarily give us the answers we are all asking. >> when he says we didn't know,

it all depends on what we means right? the president and i didn't know. the whole administration has to be responsible. this isn't something you can slough off, this is a very serious matter. >> the ground where this occurred is american ground, because the embassy and the consulate is there. >> that's right. >> so it was on american soil that this occurred. there was also a killing in yemen this week in a similar situation. we'll be right back with predictions.

four weeks away. who's going to win the election? >> too close to call. >> obama. >> too close. >> romney. >> romney. bye bye